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	<title>Comments on: The Raven: Mythical Creature, or Chicken Killer?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://chelseagreen.com/blogs/makennagoodman/2009/06/29/the-raven-mythical-creature-or-chicken-killer/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://chelseagreen.com/blogs/makennagoodman/2009/06/29/the-raven-mythical-creature-or-chicken-killer/</link>
	<description>Just another The Chelsea Green Weblogs weblog</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 19 Jun 2013 01:46:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: makennagoodman</title>
		<link>http://chelseagreen.com/blogs/makennagoodman/2009/06/29/the-raven-mythical-creature-or-chicken-killer/#comment-171</link>
		<dc:creator>makennagoodman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 13:36:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chelseagreen.com/blogs/makennagoodman/?p=58#comment-171</guid>
		<description>I'm all for freedom of speech and opinion, and while I do eat meat (and raise animals for others who also eat meat), I respect a vegetarian or vegan's right to do whatever you want, and I respect where you're coming from. The reality is, no one is "wrong", and no one is "right". We believe what we believe, until we decide to believe something else. 

While I raise animals in a humane, small-scale, and respectful way....yes, you are correct. It is true that we are living in a factory feedlot type of world. It's totally disgusting, and must be stopped. Raising meat on a homestead or small-scale operation, however, I find to be an appropriate way to subsist self sufficiently. 

If you're going to take a moral stance against raising animals altogether, then I feel you're talking about a larger issue than just "meat or no meat".  Let's say we let all the chickens run free and be wild, and stopped eating their eggs. What about wild dogs killing the wild chickens? If you came across a dog in the woods who was tearing apart a chicken...would you fault it for responding to its instincts? You'll probably say no, that the dog is acting within its "natural" range of actions.  Then you'll need to go into the whole debate about what "natural" means. And who gets to decide what it means.

It's like Republicans and Democrats. They fight all the time amongst themselves, but really....what's so different about them? They're both political parties. They both are involved in the creation of war. I believe it is the same with Vegetarians and Meat Eaters. We are both humans. Perhaps the question isn't how one subset of humans can out-"right" the other subset....but what we can do to make humanity itself less abusive, less focused on death and destruction, and more on sustainability. If your fight is against Meat Eaters, then fine. My fight is against corporate food, and special interest government who sacrifice the health of the people and animals for the sake of money. And while I engage in this fight,  I will raise my happy chickens and kill them thoughtfully and respectfully, and enjoy their meat, and be grateful I have food on my table.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#039;m all for freedom of speech and opinion, and while I do eat meat (and raise animals for others who also eat meat), I respect a vegetarian or vegan&#039;s right to do whatever you want, and I respect where you&#039;re coming from. The reality is, no one is &#034;wrong&#034;, and no one is &#034;right&#034;. We believe what we believe, until we decide to believe something else. </p>
<p>While I raise animals in a humane, small-scale, and respectful way&#8230;.yes, you are correct. It is true that we are living in a factory feedlot type of world. It&#039;s totally disgusting, and must be stopped. Raising meat on a homestead or small-scale operation, however, I find to be an appropriate way to subsist self sufficiently. </p>
<p>If you&#039;re going to take a moral stance against raising animals altogether, then I feel you&#039;re talking about a larger issue than just &#034;meat or no meat&#034;.  Let&#039;s say we let all the chickens run free and be wild, and stopped eating their eggs. What about wild dogs killing the wild chickens? If you came across a dog in the woods who was tearing apart a chicken&#8230;would you fault it for responding to its instincts? You&#039;ll probably say no, that the dog is acting within its &#034;natural&#034; range of actions.  Then you&#039;ll need to go into the whole debate about what &#034;natural&#034; means. And who gets to decide what it means.</p>
<p>It&#039;s like Republicans and Democrats. They fight all the time amongst themselves, but really&#8230;.what&#039;s so different about them? They&#039;re both political parties. They both are involved in the creation of war. I believe it is the same with Vegetarians and Meat Eaters. We are both humans. Perhaps the question isn&#039;t how one subset of humans can out-&#034;right&#034; the other subset&#8230;.but what we can do to make humanity itself less abusive, less focused on death and destruction, and more on sustainability. If your fight is against Meat Eaters, then fine. My fight is against corporate food, and special interest government who sacrifice the health of the people and animals for the sake of money. And while I engage in this fight,  I will raise my happy chickens and kill them thoughtfully and respectfully, and enjoy their meat, and be grateful I have food on my table.</p>
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		<title>By: Quin</title>
		<link>http://chelseagreen.com/blogs/makennagoodman/2009/06/29/the-raven-mythical-creature-or-chicken-killer/#comment-170</link>
		<dc:creator>Quin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 23:20:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chelseagreen.com/blogs/makennagoodman/?p=58#comment-170</guid>
		<description>If we didn't domesticate them they'd die off?

Like the ravens did before we domesticated them? 

The domesticated birds we have now did not ever exist before we warped them out by breeding them (not letting them breed as they would) so they would lay eggs most of the year or grow insanely huge breasts (so that they have deformed legs that can barely support them and often die of heart attacks before they can be slaughtered just so we can say we are eating healthier meat... how can it be if the bird can't even live long enough to be eaten?).

A true wild chicken would have a couple clutches of eggs per year. If she laid an egg that she couldn't support she would likely consume it (including the shell) to recycle the nutrients back in. We are the ones who have made it so there are few wild chickens but when they do get loose as in Hawaii or Key West it seems they do just fine, and in fact, so well that many consider them pests.

I fail to see why domestication is considered saving a species. We manipulatively breed them in huge numbers, send them down conveyer belts in part to sex them -- for egg layers which get to live all of a year or so before we kill them off en masse... if they are female, we send those identified as male to be ground up alive for feed or to suffocate under the weight of their brothers in giant dumpsters or to be gassed. Then, as stated we kill off the girls because, despite their breeding, they can't support pushing out that many eggs without sucking most of the calcium from their bones so end up with a lot of snapped bones after just a season making them not that good for the pot pie final destination meaning they just as often end up tossed in dumps (sometimes still alive).
http://fowlplaymovie.com/blog/2008/10/consuelas-story.html

Meanwhile those raised just for meat get all of 42 days to live in a pee and poop filled overcrowded building the public is kept from seeing inside.

While I applaud being much more thoughtful about your food and providing better alternatives for those who just won't do without eggs (it's not nearly as hard as people make it out to be), I do find justifications, especially that poor even while talking about the magical existence of a similarly winged being, disingenuous.

Maybe if they wouldn't exist without us, then they shouldn't exist at all. I think we need to be much more concerned about our Franken-creations getting loose and causing havoc in delicate food webs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we didn&#039;t domesticate them they&#039;d die off?</p>
<p>Like the ravens did before we domesticated them? </p>
<p>The domesticated birds we have now did not ever exist before we warped them out by breeding them (not letting them breed as they would) so they would lay eggs most of the year or grow insanely huge breasts (so that they have deformed legs that can barely support them and often die of heart attacks before they can be slaughtered just so we can say we are eating healthier meat&#8230; how can it be if the bird can&#039;t even live long enough to be eaten?).</p>
<p>A true wild chicken would have a couple clutches of eggs per year. If she laid an egg that she couldn&#039;t support she would likely consume it (including the shell) to recycle the nutrients back in. We are the ones who have made it so there are few wild chickens but when they do get loose as in Hawaii or Key West it seems they do just fine, and in fact, so well that many consider them pests.</p>
<p>I fail to see why domestication is considered saving a species. We manipulatively breed them in huge numbers, send them down conveyer belts in part to sex them &#8212; for egg layers which get to live all of a year or so before we kill them off en masse&#8230; if they are female, we send those identified as male to be ground up alive for feed or to suffocate under the weight of their brothers in giant dumpsters or to be gassed. Then, as stated we kill off the girls because, despite their breeding, they can&#039;t support pushing out that many eggs without sucking most of the calcium from their bones so end up with a lot of snapped bones after just a season making them not that good for the pot pie final destination meaning they just as often end up tossed in dumps (sometimes still alive).<br />
<a href="http://fowlplaymovie.com/blog/2008/10/consuelas-story.html" rel="nofollow">http://fowlplaymovie.com/blog/2008/10/consuelas-story.html</a></p>
<p>Meanwhile those raised just for meat get all of 42 days to live in a pee and poop filled overcrowded building the public is kept from seeing inside.</p>
<p>While I applaud being much more thoughtful about your food and providing better alternatives for those who just won&#039;t do without eggs (it&#039;s not nearly as hard as people make it out to be), I do find justifications, especially that poor even while talking about the magical existence of a similarly winged being, disingenuous.</p>
<p>Maybe if they wouldn&#039;t exist without us, then they shouldn&#039;t exist at all. I think we need to be much more concerned about our Franken-creations getting loose and causing havoc in delicate food webs.</p>
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		<title>By: Leiner</title>
		<link>http://chelseagreen.com/blogs/makennagoodman/2009/06/29/the-raven-mythical-creature-or-chicken-killer/#comment-167</link>
		<dc:creator>Leiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:52:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://chelseagreen.com/blogs/makennagoodman/?p=58#comment-167</guid>
		<description>I heard about a French woman who each year had a terrible problem with her vegetables and flowers --apparently the gophers would have at them.  She would go out in the field and bargain with them, "I have one acre in the back that is especially for you, gopher guts, you go use it or you lose it," meaning their lives.  For whatever reasons, maybe French gophers are more respectful, smarter, wear berets...but they listened.  She never lost so much as a carrot.  Try that with those robber ravens..mythical and magical as they are, maybe they'll get it.  By the way, could you tell me what I should do with the bat that's flying around my daughter's room?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I heard about a French woman who each year had a terrible problem with her vegetables and flowers &#8211;apparently the gophers would have at them.  She would go out in the field and bargain with them, &#034;I have one acre in the back that is especially for you, gopher guts, you go use it or you lose it,&#034; meaning their lives.  For whatever reasons, maybe French gophers are more respectful, smarter, wear berets&#8230;but they listened.  She never lost so much as a carrot.  Try that with those robber ravens..mythical and magical as they are, maybe they&#039;ll get it.  By the way, could you tell me what I should do with the bat that&#039;s flying around my daughter&#039;s room?</p>
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